Facebook Wars

A friend of mine posted the following as his status on Facebook:

Travis needs to keep remembering that God is in control of who will be appointed our leader, Go ahead Obama, run this country into the ground!

What follows is my response and the brouhaha that came after, ending with my special lady swooping in to save the day. Enjoy.

NOTE: Last names have been removed to protect the ignorant.

Dave Fletcher at 3:34pm October 23
Since God talks directly to Bush and Bush is running the country into the ground, doesn't that mean that God is doing a pretty shitty job? How about giving the people a chance to run our country? Which is, I'm pretty sure, what the Constitution says should be the case. Let God run the churches and leave the government to the people.

Lindsey at 3:44pm October 23
America was founded as one Nation UNDER GOD! Not one nation under the people.

Troy at 4:34pm October 23
I say we elect Yoda

Michael at 4:53pm October 23
One nation under Canada above Mexico...

Travis at 5:59pm October 23
it's funny i did that just to see what people would put, and wow, dave i'm really sorry that you feel that way about the greatest president we've had since reagan, but hey if one is a true christian and that person is not being persecuted for their beliefs, they're probably doing something wrong-walt hedrickson

Troy at 7:10pm October 23
doesn't it take like 270 electoral votes so one persons opinion/vote is not gonna break the bank on either side. Thunder Thunder Thunder CATS HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Dave Fletcher at 10:06pm October 23
A) I hope Lindsey is joking (or does she really believe the version of the Pledge of Allegiance instituted in the 1950's is the founding document of our nation, rather than the Constitution which directly outlines a government for the people, by the people and of the people) and 2) Bush and Reagan are both great presidents? Wow, what's it like ... Read Moreliving on a planet that's shaped like a cube? You am Bizarro #1!

Michael at 10:59pm October 23
Not to be against you Linds but that is from the Pledge of Allegiance. The founding fathers were Christian but they did no found the country as a Christian nation. Read this:

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_brochure_christiannation

Dave Fletcher at 11:35pm October 23
Many of them were Christian. All of them were secularists.

Travis at 12:59am October 24
what lindsey is saying is that we are UNDER GOD, people can deny it all they want, come up with all the facts and figures they want, be are UNDER GOD! When you make all of these liberal points and views, you start to believe you don't need God, or that we created God, and that we ourselves can become Gods, which is exactly what the devil wants us ... Read Moreto do, but it's stated that people will have views just like yours in the bible dave, so all you are doing is just reassuring me that I am correct as a christian. Nib High football rules!!!!!(Billy Madison)

Dave Fletcher at 9:02am October 24
I love how you act like "facts" are a bad thing. "Oooh, throwing facts at me, huh? What're you going to do next, provide evidence?! Ha ha. Loser." And I love that using ALL CAPS somehow helps make your argument for you. In which case this is one nation UNDER DOG! If only I could make my words even bigger and my logic even less logical then I... Read More could win. Screw "facts" lets just offer up nutjob arguments and far-right paranoia.

Truly, sir, a master logician.

p.s. Atheism is not a liberal view. It's just an enlightened one so it frequently happens that people who are rational are also liberal. Not always, but often.

p.p.s. The Flying Spaghetti Monster warned that there would be detractors, therefore by believing in a false god you are just reassuring me that I am correct as a pastafarian. May you be touched by his noodly appendage.

Travis at 10:57am October 24
there is a quote that i love "It is foolish to listen to someone who will not listen to you" of course this applies to both sides, but i know that if i am to truly become a strong christian that i must become the a-hole everyone will portray me to be, and i must stop being a hypocrite and stop sinning so much and preaching at the same time. I will ... Read Morebe hated, persecuted, even possibly threatened, but dave, i feel sorry for you and know that there are many people like you in this world who, through their views, have nothing to live for, no end outcome, no reason for being, and no absolute truth and certainty in life. because obviously man has shown time and time again how amazing we are at coming to our own conclusions and how we are fully capable of taking care of ourselves without anyone to watch over us, especially some war mongering, evil god that doesn't care for anyone. Yeah we do a bang up job alright.

Michael at 3:15pm October 24
Now I might not believe and follow what Travis does 100% (the reason I no longer consider myself a Christian) but that is no reason to get insulting and offensive Dave. However, I will say that Christians do tend to be very intolerant and pushy with people who don't believe what they do. There's a little amendment called Freedom of Religion which ... Read Moremeans anyone can believe anything they want without criticism or the like. Christians are the only ones who willingly break that right by trying to (for lack of a better word) force their beliefs on everyone and getting up in arms and assaultive when someone doesn't want to believe what they do.

Kris Bonner at 4:33pm October 24
Absolute truth? Can someone please show me where the absolute truth is in Christianity? Everything I've been shown on the topic is either rooted in folklore ('cause, you know, Gawd didn't write the Bible himself and all), hypocrisy, or making people fear an unproved deity in order to make those who are of weaker body and mind follow them blindly.

Return to the Dark Ages, anyone? Y'know, back to those days when religion kept people from reading and learning anything because, Gawd forbid, that may cause free-thinking and questions.

Dave hasn't told any of you that you have nothing to live for, and that your pursuits are fruitless. So to say that he has nothing to live for, no end outcome, no reason for being and no absolute truth and certainty just shows how judgmental you non-judgmentalists really are. Aren't you supposed to leave that up to your higher being?

Dave has plenty to live for. And a reason for being. And a chance at a very good outcome in life. To say he doesn't also condemns me, my children, and the wonderful life that the two of us see unfolding in front of our eyes.

THIS is a prime example of why religion doesn't work. There are the hard-core fanatics (who are usually closet sinners, and prove pious only when it suits them), the on-the-fencers (those who agree with everyone; around Atheists? They are ... Read Moreone, too! Around a fanatic? They are too! Go figure.), the dis-believers (nope, no chance at anything outside of being worm food!) and those that remain agnostic, which is not the same as Atheism. I would love to believe that there is a plan for things. That this world turns for a purpose bigger than a simple gravitational pull. However, without science, that's not going to be proven to me. Condemning me and my family to hell because I am a proof-is-in-the-pudding type of person is sick and wrong. If you get this upset and want to really judge me, crucify me. I bet my suffering lasts far longer than the petty amount of time Jesus spent there.

Bathtubs

I remember the exact moment I became an Atheist. Most people don't have that-- that single moment of conversion. A lot of Christians do, the "born agains" all do. Most of them will happily recount for you the exact moment in time when they were "saved."

I met a guy at the mall one time-- an older guy named Charles. Charles took it upon himself to proselytize to me, even though I had probably logged in more hours in the church than he had. I was a student a Grand Rapids Christian High who had been forced to go to church twice each Sunday since birth*. I also went to Sunday school each week and was forced (until my protests grew too loud for my parents to bother fighting against) to take part in weekly Cadets** meetings. There was little Charles, a new convert to the wonderful world of Jesus, could tell me about "the good news" that hadn't already heard a dozen or so times.

Luckily, Charles wasn't from one of those churches were they stress "theology" and "thinking," oh no, he was from one of those "feeling" churches. Which, suffice it to say, as a member of the Christian Reformed Church, I was not well versed in.

He told me about the day he was "saved": One day, Charles recounted, he was in the bathtub and all of a sudden he got a warm sensation (no, really, that's what he told me), he felt like everything in the room was glowing. It was the Holy Spirit and Charles knew-- he just knew-- that it was the Holy Spirit and that he had just been saved. Charles then relented from whatever unspecified sinful ways he had been indulging in and opened a Yamaha shop. I remember that he clarified that it was bikes, and not keyboards or keyboards and not bikes, but for the life of me, I can't remember which.

After sharing his story, Charles asked if I were saved. Stupid, stupid me said: "I guess so." Charles and his Holy Spirit don't 'guess.' You know you are saved or you know you're damned. So Charles decided that because I couldn't specify the date, time and tub in which I was saved, I needed to be prayed for. Right there in the mall. The middle of the mall. At closing time. The security guards were making the rounds as the employees locked up their stores and the last few customers filtered out.

Had this been the middle of the day with more people around, it would have been less of a spectacle, but since there were very few other people milling about we were the main event. As Charles laid his hands on me and prayed with his head tossed back (the better to reach god with, I guess), the empty mall became one giant echo chamber for Charles' efforts to save me. He fervently prayed for my soul, that I might "know the sweet love of you, dear Jesus and take in your spirit to transform [my] life" for all the employees of Woodland mall to hear.

Of course, at the time, I was a Christian. Y'know, except for the part where I had serious doubts about the authenticity of the Bible and didn't really think of God as anything but something to yell at when life sucked, I still considered myself a Christian. This was during my "I just don't like organized religion" phase. Which means I still went to church, but I didn't like it. If I could find Charles again, I could really give him something to pray about now.

A few years before I met Charles, I had my own conversion experience: my siblings and I were gathered in our basement as our father berated us for some awful sin or another. Perhaps we had said we'd rather watch "The Simpsons" than go to Youth Group-- something terrible like that. Already by this time, Dad had become less threatening to us and more ridiculous. Especially when he was trying to be righteous. This was around the same time that he started watching videos which blamed the Jews for the terrible state our country was in and when he had our house declared "The Church of the Second Chance" so he wouldn't have to pay property tax. Being the smart kids that we were, that whole 'honor thy father' thing was getting pretty tricky.

Anyway, he was pointing out some speck in our eyes while ignoring the Viking long ships in his own when he pointed up at the ceiling and said "the big man upstairs isn't going to be very happy with you."

My older brother (always the quickest wit in the group) replied, "There's a guy upstairs? What, is he taking a bath or something?"

My father didn't find it very funny. His sense of humor had been killed off by years of hate and impotence. But my siblings and I loved it. We embraced the idea of a mysterious and uninvited figure hanging out in our bathroom. We named him Bathtub Jeff.

We would caution each other not to incur the wrath of Bathtub Jeff. I always pictured him as a fat bald man, (with blue skin for some reason) scrubbing his back with a toilet brush and just barely able to cram himself into our tub. I imagined him yelling at us from the bathroom to "Knock that off!" as he struggled in vain to get himself out of the tub, displaced water sloshing over the side. But, of course, Bathtub Jeff couldn't get himself out of the tub. He kept slipping back into it, getting more frustrated until finally he'd stop his struggling and exhaustedly settle back into the tub, muttering something about those "damned kids downstairs."

The moment Bathtub Jeff was born was the moment I became an Atheist. It'd be the better part of a decade before I'd admit it (even to myself) but the creation of Bathtub Jeff is what planted that seed. Something clicked in that moment and suddenly the notion of "the big man upstairs" was silly. It was absurd to think that there was this bloated being, looking down on us with disapproval but unable to do anything about it. Bathtub or no bathtub.

Maybe Charles and my bathtub related conversions (him to and me from) are karma's way of keeping balance. Maybe that's just Nature's way of making sure everything stays in tune . . . Or maybe an old man made a tinkle while taking a bath and he misinterpreted it as a divine intervention. I guess we'll never know.




*Actually, when we were little my twin sister and I didn't have to go to night church and instead would stay home watching "Charles in Charge." I think it's safe to say that I learned at least as much from "Charles in Charge" as I would have in church.

**The Cadets, for those of you not from the Christian Reformed Church, is like the Boy Scouts for Calvinists. We didn't just have to earn merit badges; we were predestined to earn them.